<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Nan et al.,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am a bit confused about the term publisher_orcid as ORCIDs are identifiers for people, not organizations. It is more appropriate to give a ROR to a publisher than an ORCID.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree that a generic *_id with a *_id_type approach is best as it gives some flexibility as to the type without baking the type into the name of the attribute. In many cases the type can be expressed as a URI like <a href="https://orcid.org" class="">https://orcid.org</a>, which is generally good.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Identifiers for research groups are just developing at this point in time. I’m not sure that there is any persistent winner. One project that the Documentation Cluster led recently was the Identifying ESIP Connections project. It provided a lot of information about identifiers that may be helpful… see <a href="https://wiki.esipfed.org/Category:Identifying_ESIP_Connections" class="">https://wiki.esipfed.org/Category:Identifying_ESIP_Connections</a>.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There seems to be some confusion about what ESIP clusters are and how they operate. They are interested people that form a group to work on a particular aspect of a problem while they are interested. The definition in <a href="https://esip.figshare.com/articles/online_resource/How_to_Cluster_in_ESIP/12827963/1" class="">https://esip.figshare.com/articles/online_resource/How_to_Cluster_in_ESIP/12827963/1</a> says: ESIP Clusters are not intended to exist in perpetuity. They are proposed when a need or goal arises and are spun down when the goal has been achieved. In general, clusters have at least 3 phases in their life cycle: initiation phase, active phase, and hiatus phase. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If there are people that are interested in updating ACDD, they should revive the documentation cluster and do the work. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ted</div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:23 PM, Nan Galbraith via Esip-documentation <<a href="mailto:esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org" class="">esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
  
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
  
  <div class="">
    Hi Chris and all - <br class="">
    <br class="">
    I'm very interested in these new identity terms, which we would like
    to <br class="">
    add to the OceanSITES netCDF specification; the OS spec is built on
    CF <br class="">
    and ACDD 1.2. <br class="">
    <br class="">
    <blockquote type="cite" class="">the need to include identifiers (ORCID,
      ResearchID, AuthorID, etc) for the person listed in the creator
      attributes and the people listed in the contributor attributes. </blockquote>
    <br class="">
    We use the ACDD terms, creator_*, publisher_*, contributer_*, (where<br class="">
    the * is name, email, url, etc) and our current manual adds the
    modifier<br class="">
    _orcid - at least to the publisher field (not sure why the others
    seem to <br class="">
    be missing, I'll look into that).  <br class="">
    From the manual:<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <table style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" class="MsoNormalTable" width="463" height="55" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="1">
      <tbody class="">
        <tr class="">
          <th valign="top" height="12" align="center" class=""><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class="">name </font> </th>
          <th valign="top" height="12" align="center" class=""><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class="">example</font></th>
          <th valign="top" height="12" align="center" class=""><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class="">note</font></th>
        </tr>
        <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes;
          height:13.4pt" class="">
          <td style="width: 80.1pt; border: 1pt solid black; padding:
            0in 5.4pt;" width="107" valign="top" height="12" class=""> <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">publisher_orcid<span style="" class=""></span></span><br class="">
            </font> </td>
          <td style="width: 122.05pt; border-color: black black black
            currentcolor; border-style: solid solid solid none;
            border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-image: none 100% /
            1 / 0 stretch; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" width="163" valign="top" height="12" class=""> <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">0000-0003-0228-9795<span style="" class=""></span></span><br class="">
            </font> </td>
          <td style="width: 255.05pt; border-color: black black black
            currentcolor; border-style: solid solid solid none;
            border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-image: none 100% /
            1 / 0 stretch; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" width="340" valign="top" height="12" class=""> <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">available from <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://orcid.org/">https://orcid.org/</a><span style="" class=""></span></span><br class="">
            </font> </td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br class="">
       <br class="">
    In reviewing some of my files, though, I see I've also used<br class="">
    creator_id = <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://orcid.org/0000-0001-8001-6886">"https://orcid.org/0000-0001-8001-6886"</a> ;     <br class="">
    <br class="">
    I think that's actually better, because it allows different ID<br class="">
    types. There is a group working on a system similar to ORCID<br class="">
    that will identify groups - I'd like to see a persistent identifier
    for<br class="">
    the research group I work in, because I think our data needs to be <br class="">
    tracked back to the group, more than to any individual. At some
    point<br class="">
    we may supply the group name as the publisher, and it would be good
    to <br class="">
    have a PID for that. <br class="">
    <br class="">
    Also, I've been looking for the definitions of the roles we used in<br class="">
    ACDD. I still believe these definitions can be improved upon, (eg: <br class="">
    'creator: the person who created the data') but since they're just
    referred <br class="">
    to as ISO roles, it's hard to find them these years later.<br class="">
    <br class="">
    I disagree with Bob Simon on the problems that arise if we change
    definitions. <br class="">
    If you trust a data writer when he says a file uses ACDD, why on
    earth wouldn't<br class="">
    you trust him to also document the version? A simple work around, of
    course, <br class="">
    is to ditch the terms we use for roles, and make new, improved ones.
    It can<br class="">
    still be ACDD. <br class="">
    <br class="">
    <br class="">
    Last item -  does anyone think ACDD could be moved to the Discovery
    cluster? <br class="">
    At least in theory, it was originally all about discovery.<br class="">
    <br class="">
    Regards - Nan<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/14/21 5:17 PM, John Graybeal via
      Esip-documentation wrote:<br class="">
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E40F486F-7470-4445-81FD-8FB1D0CA1643@sonic.net" class=""> Megan,
      Ted,
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">To clarify the history, the ESIP Documentation
        Cluster did accept responsibility for managing this
        specification, did they not? I think that is not a role that
        ESIP should (can afford to?) let fall on the floor, regardless
        of the current status of the Cluster.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I don't think you were saying that would happen, I
        just wanted to be sure that's where things stand in terms of
        'ownership' of the ACDD standardization process. 
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="">John<br class="">
          <div class=""><br class="">
            <blockquote type="cite" class="">
              <div class="">On Oct 14, 2021, at 12:09 PM, Megan Carter
                <<a href="mailto:megancarter@esipfed.org" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">megancarter@esipfed.org</a>>
                wrote:</div>
              <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
              <div class="">
                <div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Bob and Others,
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                    <div class="">I would like to clarify that the ESIP
                      Documentation Cluster has been on hiatus for
                      several months now. They have not been having
                      regular meetings and, as far as I know, are not
                      having discussions of ACDD outside of this thread.
                      If anyone is interested in this area and would
                      like to start organizing Documentation Cluster
                      meetings again, that would certainly be possible.</div>
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">Best,</div>
                    <div class="">Megan</div>
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">Megan Carter Orlando</div>
                    <div class="">ESIP Community Director</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br class="">
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 14, 2021
                    at 3:00 PM Bob Simons - NOAA Federal via
                    Esip-documentation <<a href="mailto:esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org</a>>
                    wrote:<br class="">
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                    0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="ltr" class="">
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">John, you
                        make it sound so easy, but there have been no
                        changes since 2014.</div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
                        <div class="gmail_default">Regarding "<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">They* would not necessarily have to
                            discuss any other change,</span>":</div>
                        <div class="gmail_default">There are several
                          pending requests for changes. It would be odd
                          to just consider one person's request and not
                          consider the requests of other people who have
                          been waiting longer.</div>
                        <div class="gmail_default">Related: do we want
                          to start releasing a series of versions of
                          ACDD, e.g., one per change? Isn't it better to
                          do the changes in batches, like almost every
                          other standard?</div>
                        <div class="gmail_default"><br class="">
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">When the
                        Documentation Cluster decides to investigate
                        changing ACDD, I really hope they widely
                        advertise the meetings where changes to ACDD
                        will be considered so relevant parties don't
                        miss out. </div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <br class="">
                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 13,
                        2021 at 5:53 PM John Graybeal <<a href="mailto:jbgraybeal@sonic.net" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jbgraybeal@sonic.net</a>>
                        wrote:<br class="">
                      </div>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
                        0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                        rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <div class="">Matthew,
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">Thanks for this, it simplifies
                            the answers a lot!
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">Short answer is that (as I
                              understand it) the ACDD conventions are
                              'managed' by the ESIP Documentation
                              Cluster, and to start the process of
                              adding an attribute to those conventions
                              you would make the request to that
                              cluster. It's my hope that the cluster
                              would relatively quickly form a team and
                              process to support the request. They*
                              would not necessarily have to discuss any
                              other change, and other than formalizing
                              what process they want to follow, it could
                              be quite quick to decide. (Posting updated
                              documents might take longer!)  It could be
                              a valuable exercise for the Documentation
                              Cluster and community, in my humble
                              opinion.</div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">When you say "an attribute
                              explicitly for people identifiers", you
                              are right that ACDD allowed this use but
                              purposefully left it ambiguous in the
                              creator_url. At some point, if you want to
                              make ACDD less ambiguous, the amount of
                              duplicate content starts going up because
                              of backward-compatibility requirements,
                              and maybe you want a new path that's
                              incompatible with all the existing
                              metadata. (That's what we ran into last
                              time.)</div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">You can certainly add a
                              contributor_url, though nothing preclused
                              using a URL for contributor_name. But I
                              agree a URL would be good. (Or maybe these
                              days, an IRI. And be sure you allow
                              multiples! and roles for each! oops, going
                              beyond my mandate :->)</div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">Finally, totally agree the
                              metadata profile doesn't go outside of the
                              ACDD conventions, it's fine really. I just
                              want to encourage individual users to get
                              that uniquely identifiable recognition
                              too!</div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">Very clarified, and appreciate
                              closing the loop on this question. Someone
                              from the Documentation Cluster may wish to
                              comment from this point. </div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">John</div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">* I'm a member of the
                              Documentation Cluster but have not often
                              had time to participate, alas. </div>
                            <div class=""><br class="">
                            </div>
                            <div class="">
                              <div class=""><br class="">
                                <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                  <div class="">On Oct 13, 2021, at 6:06
                                    AM, Mathew Biddle - NOAA Affiliate
                                    <<a href="mailto:mathew.biddle@noaa.gov" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">mathew.biddle@noaa.gov</a>>
                                    wrote:</div>
                                  <br class="">
                                  <div class="">
                                    <div dir="ltr" class="">Bob, John,
                                      and Chris,
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">I just joined this
                                        list yesterday, so I'm just
                                        seeing Bob's response now. I
                                        wholeheartedly agree with all of
                                        your comments, thank you for
                                        walking through your logic on
                                        updating existing
                                        attributes/definitions. I think
                                        there might have been some
                                        mischaracterization of what it
                                        is Chris was asking for so I'd
                                        like to take a step back. </div>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">The problem: the
                                        Animal Telemetry Network (ATN)
                                        is looking to collect persistent
                                        identifiers for people
                                        (preferably using ORCiD, but
                                        other options are available).
                                        ATN would like to include those
                                        identifiers in the netCDF
                                        metadata at the appropriate
                                        location. So, we did a quick
                                        search through ACDD and didn't
                                        see an attribute explicitly for
                                        people identifiers. So, my first
                                        response is that this might be
                                        something worthwhile to add to
                                        the upstream conventions, how
                                        might we do that?</div>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">Where we stand:
                                        After discussing with John on
                                        the #marinedata slack channel
                                        (thanks for monitoring that
                                        channel BTW!) I was reminded of
                                        the ACDD 1.3 <a href="https://wiki.esipfed.org/Attribute_Convention_for_Data_Discovery_1-3#creator_url" target="_blank" class="">creator_url</a>
                                        attribute, which will suit the
                                        ATNs purpose. See that
                                        discussion in <a href="https://github.com/ioos/ioos-atn-data/issues/24#issuecomment-937836068" target="_blank" class="">this
                                          ticket</a>. However, it would
                                        also be beneficial if we could
                                        supplement the ACDD 1.3
                                        recommended attributes with a <b class="">contributor_url</b>
                                        attribute which doesn't exist
                                        now. This would be an addition
                                        to the existing attributes, not
                                        a change to definitions or
                                        attribute names. So, the
                                        question becomes, how do we
                                        contribute/start a conversation
                                        on adding a <b class="">new</b> attribute
                                        to the ACDD conventions? Is this
                                        even possible?</div>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">As for the IOOS
                                        Metadata Profile v1.2
                                        description for what goes in
                                        the creator_url, I'll discuss it
                                        with the team. From how I read
                                        it, it's not going outside of
                                        the ACDD 1.3 conventions. It's
                                        providing more explicit guidance
                                        as to how the IOOS community
                                        should use it (maybe the
                                        creator_type should always be
                                        'institution' for the IOOS
                                        profile to make that connection
                                        more clear). </div>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">I hope this
                                        clarifies things.</div>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">Thanks everyone for
                                        your valuable input.</div>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="">Matt</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <br class="">
                                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                                      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
                                        Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 11:49 PM
                                        Work Sonic via
                                        Esip-documentation <<a href="mailto:esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org</a>>
                                        wrote:<br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                        0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                        rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                        <div class="">Well said, I agree
                                          with all of your statements
                                          here. (Well, except for the
                                          part where you said "<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">And they are
                                            forgetting about all the
                                            consumers of data files who
                                            have to deal with different
                                            versions </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif" class="">of a</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""> standard that have
                                            different attribute names
                                            and definitions." I don't
                                            think any of us forgot about
                                            those people—many of us were
                                            those people who had to deal
                                            with existing data sets—but
                                            we had varying opinions
                                            about whether breaking
                                            changes were a good idea. In
                                            the end, the group decided
                                            that for that version, we
                                            would not make any breaking
                                            changes.)</span>
                                          <div class=""><font class="" face="Arial, Helvetica,
                                              sans-serif"><br class="">
                                            </font></div>
                                          <div class=""><font class="" face="Arial, Helvetica,
                                              sans-serif">I expect Chris
                                              has a pretty clear picture
                                              at this point! :-)</font></div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class=""><font class="" face="Arial, Helvetica,
                                              sans-serif">Thanks Bob for
                                              the input.</font></div>
                                          <div class=""><font class="" face="Arial, Helvetica,
                                              sans-serif"><br class="">
                                            </font></div>
                                          <div class=""><font class="" face="Arial, Helvetica,
                                              sans-serif">John</font></div>
                                          <div class="">
                                            <div class=""><br class="">
                                              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                                <div class="">On Oct 12,
                                                  2021, at 6:38 AM, Bob
                                                  Simons - NOAA Federal
                                                  <<a href="mailto:bob.simons@noaa.gov" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bob.simons@noaa.gov</a>>
                                                  wrote:</div>
                                                <br class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div dir="ltr" class="">
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Regarding "<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">IOOS
                                                        had recommended
                                                        creator_url be
                                                        ...</span>":</div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">IOOS can recommend whatever they
                                                      want, but it
                                                      doesn't change the
                                                      ACDD 1.3
                                                      definition of
                                                      "creator_url"
                                                      which is </div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">"The URL of the <b class="">person</b>
                                                      (or other creator
                                                      type specified by
                                                      the creator_type
                                                      attribute)
                                                      principally
                                                      responsible for
                                                      creating this
                                                      data." [emphasis
                                                      added]</div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">and which seems to be directly at
                                                      odds with the IOOS
                                                      recommendation.</div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Regarding "<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">at
                                                        least one major
                                                        user would not
                                                        accept any
                                                        changes to
                                                        existing ACDD
                                                        attributes that
                                                        would invalidate
                                                        any use that
                                                        followed a
                                                        previous version</span>"
                                                      and the desire of
                                                      some people to
                                                      make major changes
                                                      to ACDD:</div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">The person resisting changes to
                                                      existing attribute
                                                      names and
                                                      definitions was
                                                      me. I think the
                                                      reasons for that
                                                      should be obvious:</div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">This community of NOAA (especially
                                                      NCEI with its
                                                      archive), NASA,
                                                      and hundreds of
                                                      other groups, has
                                                      100's of thousands
                                                      of datasets and
                                                      100's of millions
                                                      of files using the
                                                      ACDD terms as
                                                      defined in the
                                                      various versions
                                                      1.0 - 1.3 of the
                                                      ACDD standard. If
                                                      you change one of
                                                      the attribute
                                                      names or
                                                      definitions:</div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default">
                                                      <ul class="">
                                                        <li class=""><font class="" face="arial,
                                                          sans-serif">At
                                                          best you
                                                          introduce a
                                                          complication
                                                          (a file's
                                                          reader has to
                                                          be aware of
                                                          the difference
                                                          between ACDD
                                                          versions and
                                                          interpret the
                                                          attribute
                                                          differently
                                                          according to
                                                          the stated
                                                          ACDD version).
                                                          That means
                                                          crosswalks to
                                                          other metadata
                                                          formats need
                                                          to be more
                                                          sophisticated
                                                          in order to
                                                          deal with the
                                                          differences
                                                          between ACDD
                                                          versions. That
                                                          might not be
                                                          too bad for
                                                          the changes in
                                                          one version of
                                                          ACDD, but what
                                                          about after
                                                          5,6,7 versions
                                                          of ACDD? </font></li>
                                                        <li class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif" class="">You introduce uncertainty:
                                                          Did the file's
                                                          creator
                                                          properly
                                                          understand the
                                                          differences
                                                          between how
                                                          the attribute
                                                          was different
                                                          versions of
                                                          ACDD? This
                                                          makes the
                                                          crosswalks
                                                          much harder to
                                                          write.</span></li>
                                                      </ul>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">You can see both of those problems
                                                      already (although
                                                      with minor
                                                      consequences) with
                                                      the<font class="" face="arial,
                                                        sans-serif"> pointless
                                                        change in the
                                                        spelling of the
                                                        "</font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">acknowledgment"
                                                        (the US spelling
                                                        of the word) in
                                                        pre-1.3 versions
                                                        of ACDD to
                                                        "acknowledgement"
                                                        (the British
                                                        spelling) in
                                                        ACDD 1.3. It is
                                                        now common to
                                                        see files
                                                        claiming to be
                                                        ACDD 1.3
                                                        compliant with </span><font class="" face="arial,
                                                        sans-serif">"</font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">acknowledgment"
                                                        (incorrect) and
                                                        others using </span><font class="" face="arial,
                                                        sans-serif">"</font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">acknowledgement"
                                                        (correct).  </span></div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">It
                                                        should be
                                                        obvious that if
                                                        a definition
                                                        changed (instead
                                                        of the spelling
                                                        of the attribute
                                                        name), it would
                                                        be a far more
                                                        complex
                                                        situation where
                                                        the reader must
                                                        then guess what
                                                        the file creator
                                                        intended.</span><br class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><br class="">
                                                      </span></div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">This
                                                        situation
                                                        highlights
                                                        something else:
                                                        there is a huge
                                                        difference
                                                        between the
                                                        perspective of a
                                                        person creating
                                                        a new data file
                                                        for a new
                                                        dataset, and a
                                                        person reading
                                                        files from
                                                        various
                                                        sources. </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">A person
                                                        creating a new
                                                        data file for a
                                                        new dataset has
                                                        no prior
                                                        constraints. All
                                                        they want to do
                                                        is express the
                                                        metadata content
                                                        into the file
                                                        using the
                                                        standard. But
                                                        everyone and
                                                        every project
                                                        has different
                                                        needs. For them,
                                                        it's easy to get
                                                        frustrated with
                                                        a standard
                                                        because it
                                                        doesn't fit
                                                        their idea of
                                                        what the perfect
                                                        metadata
                                                        standard would
                                                        be. Given a
                                                        blank slate and
                                                        working alone,
                                                        everyone would
                                                        create a
                                                        different
                                                        standard. The
                                                        hard part of
                                                        making the
                                                        standard (and it
                                                        was hard) is
                                                        that we had to
                                                        reconcile all
                                                        these different
                                                        ideas about what
                                                        the </span><i style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">perfect</i><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""> metadata
                                                        standard would
                                                        be. So "perfect"
                                                        gets thrown out
                                                        (since it is
                                                        impossible) and
                                                        "acceptable
                                                        compromise" is
                                                        the best we can
                                                        hope for. </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">(Yes, as my wife
                                                        says,
                                                        "compromise is
                                                        when nobody is
                                                        happy".)</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""> </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">People
                                                        making ACDD 1.3
                                                        had very diverse
                                                        ideas about what
                                                        topics should be
                                                        addressed, what
                                                        the attribute
                                                        names should be,
                                                        and especially
                                                        what the
                                                        definitions
                                                        should be.
                                                        Unfortunately,
                                                        some people
                                                        naturally retain
                                                        this idea that
                                                        we should revamp
                                                        the standard,
                                                        but they are
                                                        forgetting about
                                                        all the other
                                                        people who would
                                                        revamp the
                                                        standard in a
                                                        different way.
                                                        And they are
                                                        forgetting about
                                                        all the
                                                        consumers of
                                                        data files who
                                                        have to deal
                                                        with different
                                                        versions </span>of
                                                      a<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">
                                                        standard that
                                                        have different
                                                        attribute names
                                                        and definitions</span></div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default">
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="">As a
                                                        great example of
                                                        not changing
                                                        attribute names
                                                        or definitions
                                                        but just adding
                                                        new attribute
                                                        names and
                                                        definitions,
                                                        look at CF,
                                                        which has been
                                                        quite stable
                                                        through 9(?)
                                                        versions. The
                                                        result is that a
                                                        writer of a file
                                                        with CF metadata
                                                        can reliably
                                                        write attributes
                                                        to the file as
                                                        they have been
                                                        for years
                                                        (although
                                                        periodically
                                                        adding new
                                                        attributes to
                                                        their
                                                        vocabulary), and
                                                        a reader of a
                                                        file with CF
                                                        metadata can
                                                        pretty reliably
                                                        ignore the
                                                        stated CF
                                                        version and just
                                                        see what
                                                        attributes are
                                                        present. If a
                                                        given attribute
                                                        is present, it's
                                                        definition is
                                                        known. Thank
                                                        goodness!</div>
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="">Ethan
                                                        Davis had the
                                                        remarkable
                                                        luxury of having
                                                        a blank slate
                                                        and (I think) of
                                                        working alone
                                                        when he created
                                                        ACDD 1.0. But
                                                        now, forever
                                                        more, new
                                                        versions of ACDD
                                                        will be
                                                        painfully hashed
                                                        out by numerous
                                                        people working
                                                        toward an
                                                        acceptable
                                                        compromise. On
                                                        behalf of other
                                                        consumers of
                                                        data files and
                                                        on behalf of
                                                        software
                                                        developers who
                                                        write software
                                                        that processes
                                                        data files,
                                                        please, please,
                                                        please, let's
                                                        keep existing
                                                        attribute names
                                                        and definitions
                                                        stable. If you
                                                        want to add new
                                                        attribute names
                                                        and definitions
                                                        to address new
                                                        concepts, go for
                                                        it. </div>
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="">Here's
                                                        a compromise
                                                        (but where
                                                        everyone is
                                                        happy) for all
                                                        of you who
                                                        really want to
                                                        make massive
                                                        changes to ACDD
                                                        (essentially
                                                        starting from a
                                                        blank slate): go
                                                        for it! Create
                                                        your own
                                                        metadata
                                                        standard (just
                                                        as Ethan did
                                                        with ACDD 1.0),
                                                        but just give it
                                                        a different
                                                        name, not
                                                        "ACDD". After
                                                        all, that is
                                                        what your new
                                                        metadata
                                                        standard is: a
                                                        new metadata
                                                        standard. If it
                                                        is a great
                                                        standard, as
                                                        ACDD 1.0 was, it
                                                        will fill a
                                                        niche and be
                                                        widely adopted
                                                        and possibly
                                                        supplant ACDD
                                                        (if it addresses
                                                        the same
                                                        issues). But
                                                        effectively
                                                        killing off the
                                                        current ACDD 1.x
                                                        by labelling
                                                        your new and
                                                        very different
                                                        standard ACDD
                                                        2.0, is wrong
                                                        unless everyone
                                                        in the ESIP
                                                        Documentation
                                                        Cluster agrees
                                                        that it is time
                                                        to kill off ACDD
                                                        1.x and go down
                                                        that different
                                                        route (and you
                                                        probably won't
                                                        get my vote).  I
                                                        like ACDD (1.0
                                                        to 1.3) and
                                                        its stability is
                                                        incredibly
                                                        valuable to me.
                                                        I have a lot
                                                        invested in ACDD
                                                        1.3.. I know I'm
                                                        not alone --
                                                        think of NASA
                                                        and NCEI with
                                                        millions of
                                                        archived
                                                        files with ACDD
                                                        1.x metadata and
                                                        all the software
                                                        that writes and
                                                        reads these
                                                        files.</div>
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="">Best
                                                        wishes.</div>
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><br class="">
                                                      </span></div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><br class="">
                                                      </span></div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <br class="">
                                                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                                                    <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
                                                      Mon, Oct 11, 2021
                                                      at 4:33 PM John
                                                      Graybeal via
                                                      Esip-documentation
                                                      <<a href="mailto:esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org</a>>
                                                      wrote:<br class="">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
                                                      0px 0px
                                                      0.8ex;border-left:1px
                                                      solid
                                                      rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                      <div class="">Hi
                                                        Chris,
                                                        <div class=""><br class="">
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div class="">I
                                                          believe there
                                                          have been 3,
                                                          maybe 4
                                                          threads in the
                                                          past 2-3 years
                                                          about updating
                                                          ACDD. I
                                                          wouldn't say
                                                          any of them
                                                          were as
                                                          action-oriented
                                                          as
                                                          yours—sometimes
                                                          interest in a
                                                          particular
                                                          attribute,
                                                          other times
                                                          general
                                                          interest in
                                                          whether it's
                                                          being
                                                          maintained.
                                                          None has gone
                                                          so far as to
                                                          say "I want to
                                                          open a new
                                                          round of
                                                          discussion for
                                                          ACDD." The
                                                          list archive
                                                          may have some
                                                          details. </div>
                                                        <div class=""><br class="">
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div class="">I
                                                          note that
                                                          nothing
                                                          *precludes*
                                                          your using
                                                          those
                                                          identifiers
                                                          for the people
                                                          or
                                                          organizations
                                                          in the
                                                          contributor
                                                          attributes,
                                                          all those
                                                          identifiers
                                                          can be named
                                                          via URLs,
                                                          which is
                                                          consistent
                                                          with the ACDD
                                                          spec. What are
                                                          you trying to
                                                          do exactly
                                                          that isn't
                                                          already
                                                          possible?</div>
                                                        <div class=""><br class="">
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">Within
                                                          the past week,
                                                          there was a
                                                          question in
                                                          the
                                                          #marinedata
                                                          Slack channel
                                                          of the ESIP
                                                          workspace
                                                          about ORCiDs
                                                          in netCDF,
                                                          followed by a
                                                          long
                                                          discussion
                                                          about the ACDD
                                                          1.3
                                                          creator_url.
                                                          In the course
                                                          of that
                                                          discussion it
                                                          was mentioned
                                                          that IOOS had
                                                          recommended
                                                          creator_url be</div>
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <blockquote type="cite" class="">The
                                                          URL of
                                                          the institution that
                                                          collected the
                                                          data. Note
                                                          that this
                                                          should always
                                                          reference an
                                                          institution
                                                          URL, and not a
                                                          personal URL,
                                                          even
                                                          if creator_type=person.</blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">I
                                                          wasn't there
                                                          so I can't
                                                          fairly assess
                                                          that guidance,
                                                          but it is
                                                          sufficiently,
                                                          umm,
                                                          unexpected
                                                          that it'd be
                                                          nice to get
                                                          your needs met
                                                          by ACDD
                                                          directly.</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">That
                                                          said, two
                                                          considerations
                                                          about ACDD:
                                                          (1) At the
                                                          last update
                                                          round, at
                                                          least one
                                                          major user
                                                          would not
                                                          accept any
                                                          changes to
                                                          existing ACDD
                                                          attributes
                                                          that would
                                                          invalidate any
                                                          use that
                                                          followed a
                                                          previous
                                                          version. So
                                                          our ability to
                                                          update certain
                                                          fields the way
                                                          many members
                                                          wanted to was
                                                          effectively
                                                          blocked. (2)
                                                          With ESIP's
                                                          Documentation
Cluster(Committee?) as the current 'standards body' for ACDD, you'd be
                                                          starting down
                                                          a path that
                                                          has not been
                                                          travelled yet,
                                                          to my
                                                          knowledge.</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">I
                                                          hope that is
                                                          the right
                                                          level of
                                                          information to
                                                          share in
                                                          response to
                                                          your query! I
                                                          think it would
                                                          be great for
                                                          ACDD to get
                                                          another round,
                                                          especially if
                                                          it was clear
                                                          that a break
                                                          from the past
                                                          was necessary
                                                          to improve
                                                          metadata
                                                          quality from
                                                          what the
                                                          current
                                                          standard can
                                                          support.
                                                          Obviously that
                                                          would open up
                                                          quite a number
                                                          of questions
                                                          that just
                                                          might go
                                                          beyond your
                                                          own interest.
                                                          ;-)</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">John</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                                          <div class="">On
                                                          Oct 11, 2021,
                                                          at 1:02 PM,
                                                          Chris Turner
                                                          via
                                                          Esip-documentation
                                                          <<a href="mailto:esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">esip-documentation@lists.esipfed.org</a>>
                                                          wrote:</div>
                                                          <br class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div dir="ltr" class="">Hello
                                                          all,
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">I'm
                                                          curious about
                                                          any movement
                                                          or interest to
                                                          update the
                                                          ACDD. I know
                                                          that v1.3 is 6
                                                          years old, and
                                                          the ESIP wiki
                                                          makes it looks
                                                          like there
                                                          hasn't been
                                                          interest or
                                                          discussion in
                                                          this since
                                                          2017. Is there
                                                          still any
                                                          intent to
                                                          develop v2.0?</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">My
                                                          sudden
                                                          interest in
                                                          this comes
                                                          from the need
                                                          to include
                                                          identifiers
                                                          (ORCID,
                                                          ResearchID,
                                                          AuthorID, etc)
                                                          for the person
                                                          listed in the
                                                          creator
                                                          attributes and
                                                          the people
                                                          listed in the
                                                          contributor
                                                          attributes.
                                                          I'd like to do
                                                          this in a
                                                          community-vetted
                                                          way, but but
                                                          if there isn't
                                                          an active
                                                          community
                                                          working on
                                                          ACDD anymore,
                                                          we can look at
                                                          including
                                                          these
                                                          attributes in
                                                          one of the
                                                          netCDF
                                                          community
                                                          profiles -
                                                          probably the
                                                          the <a href="https://ioos.github.io/ioos-metadata/ioos-metadata-profile-v1-2.html" target="_blank" class="">IOOS metadata profile</a>. </div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">Thanks
                                                          for whatever
                                                          you can tell
                                                          me.</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class="">-
                                                          Chris</div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                                          -- <br class="">
                                                          <div dir="ltr" class="">
                                                          <div dir="ltr" class="">
                                                          <div class="">
                                                          <div class="">Chris
                                                          Turner</div>
                                                          <div class="">Data
                                                          Librarian
                                                          | Axiom Data
                                                          Science</div>
                                                          <div class=""><a href="mailto:chris@axiomalaska.com" target="_blank" class="">chris@axiomdatascience.com</a></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </blockquote>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br class="">
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
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  </div>
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